Thursday, January 10, 2008

Sorry Jim Rice....Part Deux


I cant let this go and this time i am throwing down fisticuffs and bringing Jack Johnson with me. Joe Sheehan of BaseballProspects.com posted a great article on CNNSI explaining why Rice is unworthy of HOF consideration. He writes pretty much exactly what i had been trying to say yesterday.

"It is entirely possible that he was "feared." That fear, however, was based on performance that warranted it through 1980; it was based on nothing thereafter. Rice hit .299/.355/.490 from 1981 through '86"

I agree with everything he said in the article except the bit where he says his numbers were padded due to the friendly confides of Fenway Park, that is usually a cop out to take votes away from all HOF players. If thats the case, no Rockie slugger will ever make the hall. But after he turned 27 his career went from HOF worthy to just an average ballplayer. To make the HOF you have to be the best, top 1%throughout an entire career, not just a few couple ones.

Oh, And Rickey Henderson is a shoe in to be a first ballet hall of famer.

14 comments:

Dews said...

Jim Rice didn't suck, he's just not a Hall of Famer.

There is a very long list of very feared and accomplished hitters that had decent careers, with some of those years being far better then average, but thats just not enough in my book to warrant a HOF slot...

SayHey Kid said...

Your right.....He didnt suck. But Red Sox nation argues every year that he is HOF worthy. Im convinced its that "other" rivalry between the Yanks and Sox.....Who has more HOF players.

There will and will always be great players, but to be a HOFer, you need to be more than great.

Dewey, Cheatem, & Howe said...

You're right, Rickey Henderson is a ballet HOFer.

Zing!

SayHey Kid said...

I still dont understand your reasoning as to why he isnt. You look at his career past 40 years old and nothing else

Dewey, Cheatem, & Howe said...

There have been, I think, 43 guys who went in on the first ballot, including the first HOF class. I am not ready to put Rickey Henderson in the same class of outfielders as, for example, Ted Williams, Willie Mays, or even Tony Gwynn. He is not of their class. He was exceptionally fast, but he was not a prodigy except for on the basepaths. Sorry, but he isn't a first ballot HOFer in my opinion.

Shane Rollins said...

Actually, talking to the other Jewish E last night (a die hard Red Sox Fan) he doesn't think Rice is a hall of famer either. His dominate years were short (76-80) and felt Fenway helped his numbers tremendously, especially when you look to see how he hit at other ballparks. It's been the media that has given him this push towards the hall of fame, and mainly the Boston one at that.

Was Rickey a power hitting outfielder, no. He is the game's GREATEST leadoff hitter of all time. He's the games greatest base stealer of all time. Lou Brock was a first ballot hall of famer and Rickey Henderson destroyed every record he ever owned. That alone gets him into the hall of fame as a first ballot.

SayHey Kid said...

Fair enough, You mentioned Tony Gwynn as an elite first ballot player. Tell me this, what did he do other than hit for a high average?? Your telling me mastering the basepaths is less of an accomplishment than a high batting average? That being baseball greatest baserunner is not worthy of a 1st ballot??

Tony Gywnn hit for a high average, but his career avg isnt baseballs best. And dont give me a different era as a defense.

Dews said...

actually, the different eras is a great defense, but your point about the singular dimension of Tony Gwynn's career really hits to the heart of the matter.

Which is more valuable, a guy that can get on first, or a guy that gets on first slightly less often, but then makes sure he's on third or at least 2nd without sacrificing another batter?

I'll take Rickey in the first ballot :)

SayHey Kid said...

Rickey was the ultimate playmaker. Unlike a HR hitter; where you walked him in order to take him out of the lineup, with Rickey you HAD to pitch to him. If he got on he was gonna score. He was that huge of a threat

To me thats dominance!

Dews said...

I still take Ty Cobb over Rickey though...

I respect the crazys!

SayHey Kid said...

Rickey spoke in the first person and would pose nude in front of the mirror while in his batting stance. Thats kinda crazy aint it??

Im not into the whole racism thing. Cobb was great but rather "outspoken"

Dews said...

Cobb probably killed someone, and revolutionized the way we play the game.

Yes he was a mean awful horrible person, but the way the man played baseball makes him the greatest in my book.

Dewey, Cheatem, & Howe said...

I gotta go with Dews on this one: Ty Cobb is the best leadoff hitter ever, and probably in the top five hitters ever regardless of position in the batting order. Pete Rose didn't have Rickey's speed, but he was a much better hitter and was probably the best baserunner ever. You can't even put Rickey in their league. Moreoever, both of those guys were solid doubles hitters. If I were a manager, I would take a guy who could hit a double over a guy who could hit a single and either need to be sacrificed over, wait for a hit, or need to risk a steal (meet Rickey Henderson, your career leader in most times caught stealing).

The Gwynn as a one-dimensional thing doesn't work for me. He has more Gold Gloves than Rickey.

Rickey is the greatest to only two kinds of folks: Rickey and those who don't consider all the evidence.

NOT a first ballot HOFer in my opinion.

Dewey, Cheatem, & Howe said...
This comment has been removed by the author.