Tuesday, January 6, 2009

Tuesday Two-fer

Israel's push in Gaza has entered its tenth day.  And by all accounts, it's (predictably) a humanitarian crisis.  Palestinian civilians are bearing the brunt of the Israeli attack: Palestinian casualties have exceeded 550, fuel and water has been cut off to hundreds of thousands, and basic medical care is hard to come by.

The stated purpose, of course, is to rid Gaza of its Hamas political leadership and to put an end to years of rocket attacks.  Israel has expressly said that it has no designs on occupying Gaza (Strip, not City).  But, however, there seems to be something strangely familiar, even Bush-like, about the assault.  When our nation invaded Iraq, we, at least at some point, stated that our goal was to crush terrorism and promote democracy and freedom.  But we went into Iraq with guns blazing, stirring up a hornets nest that still hasn't died down.

Israel, according to the spokesman I listened to on NPR this morning, aims to instruct the Palestinians that they should abandon terrorism and direct their efforts towards things like economic development - things that promote peace.  But the approach, to me, is both disproportional and wholly misguided.  Why not invest in better infrastructure, free economic development, and improving impoverished conditions rather than bombing folks into the stone age?  Just doesn't seem right.

On the home front, we're nearly two weeks away from Inauguration Day, which we're all waiting for.  And waiting for our new President will be the worst financial meltdown we've seen since the Depression.  We all know that.  And, we all know that the way to solve all this is to prop up our vital industries and financial services companies with huge, huge infusions of cash and credit.

Or do we?  If you've been following the editorials, you'll note some folks, like Paul Krugman of the NYT, noting that one of the worst fiscal moves our country made was President Franklin Roosevelt's attempts to balance the federal budget after only a few years of deficit spending during the Great Depression.  The theory goes that if he and Congress hadn't pulled back, the Depression wouldn't have last as long as it did.  Therefore, the thought goes, we should not make the same mistake twice and fail to dump many trillions of dollars into our economy.

But let me play devil's advocate here for a moment, bearing in mind that I'm no economist.  However, what about letting things be?  At least part of the modern conservative theory of capitalist economics holds that from time to time modern economies must re-allocate resources from less productive industries to more productive industries.  Our economy has recently been tied up in financial services and heavy investment in real estate.  That served us fairly well after we recovered from the collapse of heavy manufacturing.  If we prop up our economy now, do we in some way prevent it from transitioning to the next big thing?  Should we hold up on the economic stimulus, maybe let this thing play out, regardless of the pain?

37 comments:

Dews said...

Dewey, I do hear your call for the "steady as she goes" argument, but there was a bit of that before the Great Depression as well, which also leads to the argument that if they had reacted quicker to warning signs, then they wouldn't have sunk so badly long term.

Seems like we have a catch-22 situation with the economy that probably has multiple solutions, but multiple problems that may not even be fixable without significant changes in how we do business.

All I know is, I could do a lot of good (mostly for myself) with a million dollars, so the guvmint should pony up the cash already...

That is all.

SayHey Kid said...

I agree with Dews. However, the complete lack of oversight and regulations on Wall Street most certainly contributed to the current economic collapse. The only short term solution is that someone pulls a Tyler Durdin and blow up the creditors.

As for the conflict in Gaza, if Hammas did not start firing rockets minutes after the cease fire expired, its unlikely Israel would be in Gaza right now. The only alternative would have been for Israel to accept rocket fire on an hourly basis.

Dews said...

I don't totally buy the argument that its appropriate to kill 550 people as payback for injuring 11 Isreali's while killing a handful though SayHey...

Both sides are being and have been unreasonable from the beginning, the only difference is that Isreal is more efficient at killing Palestinians.

They're both basically being bitches about the whole thing, which makes this all the more frustrating as there is really no end in sight here...

SayHey Kid said...

Dews- So what your saying, if a country attacked the USA, we should not defend and protect ourselves??

Its easy to play the humanitarian card when rockets are not flying over your head on a daily basis.

Dews said...

Yes, I'm a pinko commie that thinks the terrorists are always right and we have no right to defend ourselves... Also I hate Isreal apparently :)

No, defending yourself from a guerilla organization and an ideal at the same time is not effectively dealt with by killing hundreds of civilians as part of a collateral damage write-off.

Do we really believe that the Mossad cannot effectively hunt down and kill Hamas leaders? Do we really need to send in troops and blow up entire city blocks (thus doing Hamas's recruiting for it) in order to avenge some dummy rockets launched into that territory?

Both sides are in a pissing contest, but Isreal doesn't get 10X more recruits every time someone is killed like Hamas does. At what point do you stop and think "Hey wait, this may not be working"?

Jack Gonzo, MD said...

See, Israel HAS tried the humanitarian route, they have tried to make peace with the Palestinians. Every time peace is brokered, Hamas and others break that peace. Now you can call Hamas a terrorist organization if you want (they are) but they are also the central government now too. Israel attacked Hamas military bases, now they hide within the people. In the past that was enough to get Israel to stop, but not this time. I understand why Israel is saying enough is enough.

We hear complaints that it is a humanitarian crisis, but what about the crisis of rockets being launched at Israel civilians? What about buses that are blown up? It is not the Israel military that is targeted but its people. Israel has a right to defend themselves, whether you believe they should be there or not. The country is there, it defened itself and secured its land and is without a doubt the most patient country in the world. I know of no other country that would be attacked by its neighbor or anyone else for that matter who has been restrained as much as Israel has. Israel could eassily take over much of the Middle East, there likely isn't a military there that could stand up to them, and that's without our help. It says a lot when they could grab up more land but are satisfied with what they have.

This is a war between two religions that has raged for a couple millenia now. Israel can live in peace with Muslims and their nations, the latter though appears to not be able to.

SayHey Kid said...

You can blame England and the UN all you want for irresponsibly dividing up the nation in 1948, but you need to accept the reality in which the Israeli people live in now. What other alternative do they have??

The Israeli government has a duty to protect their citizen and when you’re under 24 hour rocket and bomb threats, you need to act in the best interest of your people.

Firing rockets into civilian populations in Southern Israel minutes after a cease fire expires proves that Hamas wants no peace, they want to resolution, and they are unwilling to do what’s necessary to end the violence.

Dews said...

Isreal is just as guilty of escalating the violence by assasinations during the cease fire as Hamas is "guilty" of launching rockets after said agreement expired.

If you agree to no violence and send your goons in anyway to kill leaders on bordering nations, you are no better then the supposed "terrorists" you are fighting.

The reasoning for Isreal to jump in at this stage is they are worried that Obama doesn't share their attitude in how to solve this situation (ie, killing a hundred people for every one lost).

Defending yourself doesn't involve provoking AND killing massive amounts of civilians.

And the argument that Isreali's live in constant fear? Honestly? It sucks to live in such an industrialized nation as Isreal, when the alternative is the refugee camps of Gaza... Yea, great comparison...

SayHey Kid said...

So your argument is that Israel is killing to many people and Hamas is not killing enough? Since when is war an even playing field?

If I recall, Israel set free 200+ Palestinian prisoners back in August to show good faith. I see that is an olive branch for peace. What does Israel get in return?? Same old death threats.

To me, constant fear has nothing to do with your "industrialized nation", its when your neighbors want your country to simply die and will do just about anything for that to happen.

Miss Cleveland Park said...

Israel is surrounded by enemies. Enemies meaning all other middle eastern countries. If they aren't at war with enemy 1 then its enemy 2. if its not enemy 2 then its enemy 3. As someone who has been there twice and has seen the the 18 year old soldiers carrying machine guns prepared to fight for thier country, I support Israel and always will. I hate to be this way, but you can't possibly understand how important it is for Israel to defend itself. And that is EXACTLY what is happening. They arew DEFENDING themselves. Its the ONLY place we as Jews can always go and be welcomed and home, no matter what. Without sounding condescending,i don't expect you to understand what it feels like to be hated because of your religion and who you are. I have family there right now, and of course Im scared, but if they don't defend themselves then it will be much worse.

Jack Gonzo, MD said...

You speak of the last few months, I talk about what has happened year after year after year. Every single peace accord, every time it was reached, it was Hamas and Palestein who broke it. How many times have we had a peace and had it broken by Palestein?

Dews said...

Its incredibly scary situation for everyone involved in that part of the world, but thats precisely why I feel the way I do.

You have a group of people in Hamas randomly targeting people in Isreal with Rockets, but then you have a professional war machine capable of wiping out many of those enemies on the borders blowing up parts of Gaza and refugee camps hunting Hamas, where you have millions of poor, pathetic people living in poverty.

Its not like I don't appreciate the danger and scariness of people living in Isreal, but I feel like people also don't take into consideration that there are real live people living in Gaza in horrible conditions that are ALSO subject to this kind of scary world.

These people have very little prospect for the future, so any time there are massive casualties on that side every "real" hamas casualty is replaced by easily 5-10 new bodies that become misguided enough to continue on their message...

Miss Cleveland Park said...

In the words of my 5 year old cousin, "BUT THEY STARTED IT!"

SayHey Kid said...

Those 5-10 bodies could easily become misguide through oral tradition regardless of the body count. The truth is, Hamas should not be firing rockets into Israel if they truly cared about the well being of there citizens.

Hamas spends all of their aide money on weapons and suicide bomber recruitment incetives (what is it, 10k US to the family of a suicide bomber?) If Hamas put that money toward education, infrastructure, and health care, then the situation would be alot different than it is now.

Peace is a two way street and cannot be achieved if the other party breaks countless cease fires by suicide bombing in a crowded market or on a packed bus.

Dews said...

Hamas has no reason to invest any of that money into anything but more weapons when the IDF play right into their hands swelling their recruitment ranks...

Hamas are not the people that need to be in charge in order for there to be peace, it needs to be a large international effort to increase economic projects in the area as well as an enormous investment in infrastructure.

The catch here is that they WILL be in charge as long as the status quo just keeps going. We shoot at you, you kill lots of us, we shoot back, get tons more recruits, rinse and repeat...

SayHey Kid said...

Who do you think elected Hamas to lead their government? If the people want change, they need to rise up, am i right? You cannot put that burden soley on NATO or the UN.

Viva la Revolution!!!!

SayHey Kid said...

Hell, NATO and the UN cannot even agree to fix the situation in Darfur, what makes you think they will have any influence over the conflict in Gaza??

Dews said...

Hamas was not elected, they seized control in 07 from Abbas and the Fatah government...

This just goes back to the IDF creating more and more recruits. Democracy isn't going to "work" for our advantage if people are still under a foreign power's thumb.

I said international, I didn't say UN. I'm more then open to suggestions here rather then defending the value of human life.

Dewey, Cheatem, & Howe said...

It's just a sickening situation. Israel puts a stranglehold on Gaza, making it like a concentration camp, Hamas fires rockets, Israel bombs, and the cycle goes on. Neither side can claim they are right.

And the argument that Israel must survive at any cost is junk to me. All people everywhere have the right to survive and live as they see fit (within reason). Israel is not special, it just has a great PR department.

Miss Cleveland Park said...

Excuse me. As the only Jew blogging right now, I have to say that is an ignorant, and somewhat insensitive point of view. When your grandparents are forced out of thier homes and into concentration camps, then you can say there is nothing special or necessary about about Israel. Obviously, you have never been there. There is a LOT special about Israel....why else do you think everyone wants it.

Dewey, Cheatem, & Howe said...

Isn't SayHey Jewish?

And I think you missed the obvious point. Everyone has a right to live where they wish, have the political rights they want, to live securely, and generally be as free as they wish. Why is Israel special? Why is it better and/or different?

SayHey Kid said...

Hamas was declared the winner in the January 25, 2006 election.

So your saying because Gaza is a hell hole (a situation created BY Hamas because they smuggled weapons that kill Israeli's) that suicide bombing and rocket attacks are justifiable?

You may not think Israel is special but know that many of us do.

Miss Cleveland Park said...

SayHey is half. I'm just sayin...

Israel is insurance to us. have you ever seen the bumper stickers "Never Again?" Well, we all hope nothing like the Holocaust ever happens again, but if somethign did, Jews, like other religions, need a "safe" place. A place we are welcomed. I can't explain what it feels like to walk down a street and know you are the majority, when so often you are not. I never knew it was a big deal, until I experienced it. Everyone has the right. The difference is we have one country...just one and we are constantly fighting for it.

SayHey Kid said...

Thank you Dewey. The Lady friend forgets that sometimes =).

Judaism is the oldest Monotheistic religion, YET, Jews have NEVER had a country of their own until 1948 and have been persecuted for 2000 years, you better believe Israel is a special country....To alot of people

SayHey Kid said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dewey, Cheatem, & Howe said...

I hope that myself and one billion of my friends can all crowd into the Vatican City then. Maybe some of us could spill over into that Mediterrean nation where our religion came from. I wonder if the people there would be okay with it. What do you think?

Everyone has the right to live among the majority? That one, I think, is hard to argue for. But I'll listen.

And Hamas created the hellish conditions in Gaza by smuggling weapons and bombing Israel? I'd thought it was just because Hamas defeated Fatah, and because Israel does not like Hamas. Regardless, hasn't the UN condemned Israel something like a dozen times for human rights violations on this one?

SayHey Kid said...

Dewey- Now I know why this blog nearly died. There is no reason to be an arogant asshole.

Dews said...

Well, it keeps the conversation going anyway...

Anyone see Bolt?

Miss Cleveland Park said...

comparing the vatican to Israel is not fair. As a population of .2% of the world and a history of persecution, we need a safe place, where we can practice our religion and be accepted. We as Jews will fight till death to keep the State of Israel, and it appears we may have to.

As for the "Everyone has the right to live among the majority?" Well, actually, maybe I misstyped. Thats not what I meant. I meant, it in a way that only Jews can understand. We need a place where we can live, safely, and practice our beliefs without being discrimated against, etc.

SayHey Kid said...

People who are completely unsympathetic to human history YET preaches to me about human rights violations is very insulting. Forgive me if I am unaware of the Christian suffering in the past 60 years.

Bolt? Nah, Miley Cyrus is evil

Jack Gonzo, MD said...

So you say that a people have a right to survive, but Israel doesn't? They do not create a concentration camp, they do it by electing Hamas. Hamas attacks Israel, does Israel not have a right to defend themselves? They were attacked by how many nations back the day, no one helped them then, no one helps them when they are attacked on a regular basis but Israel needs to be restrained? We were attacked once and invaded two different nations, who are we to judge?

Oh, btw, Israel did have a nation before (if you at least take the bible as a history book) but there hass NEVER been a country, a nation called Palenstein.

Dews said...

Of course we help Israel, they are our little brother in the middle east. We helped them during the 6-day war and we will continue to help when we need to.

My argument has nothing to do with whether Israel should exist or defend themselves, it has to do with finding a solution because an eye for many is not cutting it.

There needs to be solution to end violence, not more finger pointing, and I haven't heard one constructive idea from anyone yet besides poking holes in mine.

Anyone? Ideas?

SayHey Kid said...

I agree and I honestly believe every possible solution ended with the same result.

Unless it means Israel giving up their country or ceasing to exist, then the conflict will just go on.

Jack Gonzo, MD said...

SayHey hits the nail on the head, they've tried peace, they've tried it multiple times and EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. They were not the ones to break the peace.

There is one undeniable fact that most peoplle often forget. Israel just wants to survive. Hamas, Iran, they want one thing the destruction of Israel. Period.

Miss Cleveland Park said...

well said.

Dews said...

Hamas cannot be a broker for peace, that much is certain, but I don't believe that this cycle just has to keep going without a resolution.

Invasions aren't going to solve anything, so at some point SOMETHING has to change.

and Bolt was actually pretty good, fyi...

Dewey, Cheatem, & Howe said...

Why is it that every time you and I disagree, I get called an arrogant asshole?