Wednesday, January 9, 2008

Sorry Jime Rice!!


I think its obvious now, that Dews and I agree COMPLETELY on the fact that Jim Rice is unworthy of Hall of Fame recognition. What did he do in his career that was so impressive?? All that comes to mind these days of Jim Rice are when he struck out twice in a playoff game against the Yankees in 1978 with men on both times. Yes, the game in which HOF relief pitcher Goose Gossage stuck him out both of those times. WTG Mr. Clutch!!

Yes, he was a great hitter but look at the stats. 382 HRs and 2452 Hits in 15 years. Those numbers alone are not gonna get you into any HOF, well, Maybe Pawtucket. There will be a heightened debate in 2009, that being Goose Gossage. Goose had stats but they were eye dropping, just as Jime Rice. But Gossage put the FEAR of GOD into hitters. He had a Dave Stewart stare before Dave Stewart ever played baseball. He had that grizzled look that made Jim Rice wet himself (And im sure he did). That fear with decent stats, extreme durability, and a World Series ring is a shoe in for the HOF (Granted it took 12 years, but look at the competition he was up against). Jimbo, nobody feared you, in fact, when it came to the big game you chocked. I mean A-Rod chocked. The Yankees made you their bitch before Pedro was born. Hell, when i saw your goofy grin on your baseball cards Id laugh and place them on the spokes of my bike.

Dews said it best, If Albert Belle isnt in the HOF then neither will Jim Rice. In addition, Jim Rice's competition next year in his HOF bid is none other than...*Drum role please*

The greatest of all time............Mr. first person himself, RICKEY HENDERSON.

Side Note- Shane, when are we gonna book our hotel room for Cooperstown in 2009?? I dont want to miss a Rickey induction speech.

26 comments:

Dews said...

totally on board with Rickey!

He should still be playing if he wasn't black-listed from MLB...

SayHey Kid said...

Shane and I went to a Mets vs Nats game back in September. He took BP & fielding practice and he looked amazing.

Cooperstown better begin the construction of his own HOF Wing.

Dewey, Cheatem, & Howe said...

Haha...I get it. Good joke guys. When do you start your stand up routine?

Dewey, Cheatem, & Howe said...

I also fully endorse giving Rickey Henderson the Phil Niekro treatment. It's a travesty if Henderson makes it in on any of his first five or six ballots.

Dews said...

DC&H's judgement is clouded by his membership to Jerry Remy's "Red Sox Nation"...

Your vote doesn't count Dewey :)

Seriously, Rice's stats are almost identical to Albert Belle... You elect Belle, then you can elect Rice (not that I am in ANY way suggesting that Joey Belle should be in the HOF).

Dewey, Cheatem, & Howe said...

You elect a guy based upon the era in which he played. Rice played in (probably) the pre-steroids era. Belle played in the steroids era. I'd say that if he and Belle have similar stats, it's to Rice's credit. No juice to help him out.

SayHey Kid said...

Rice did play in the steroid free era but other than a 46 HR season, what warrents him to be in the HOF. What talent did he possess that nobody else had?? He was a great hitter but never an outstanding one.

What makes Jim Rice that much better than Andre Dawson??

Belle may have played in the steroid era (And was one mean Mo-Fo), but so did Ripken and Gwynn. Should their HOF honors be stripped away for that??

SayHey Kid said...

DC&H- Give me one GOOD reason why Rickey isnt a first ballot HOF.

Note I put "good" in bold

Dews said...

Compare Rice to the likes of Fred Lynn, Dwight Evans, Dave Parker...

None of them will make it either, but doesn't mean they weren't all great players in their own right.

SayHey Kid said...

Exactly.....the HOF is an exclusive club in which a few good years wont cut it. Face it, Jim Rice only had a few good ones

Dewey, Cheatem, & Howe said...

I think the Rickey to Phil Niekro analogy is apt: you may have a milestone under your belt (3000 hits v. 300 wins), and you may have been dominant in your prime (Niekro led the league in strikeouts, ERA, wins, and innings pitched several times, Rickey was a perennial SB leader, OBP leader once EARLY in his career, and led the league in hits once) but when it takes you 25-30 years to compile milestone numbers, people ought take a long look at you.

Is Rickey a an illeist HOFer? Yes.

Not first ballot though.

Dews said...

I think the best argument for HOF type careers is the milestones first, but then how much the person may have dominated the respective aspects of the game he played.

In Henderson's case, the man could steal a base at will... He was a really good version of Vince Coleman and turned singles routinely into triples.

Anyone that can change the game so easily purely by their skill and desire certainly deserves to be a first ballot entry.

Not unanimous, since those jackasses didn't even give Cal that honor, but definitely a first balloter.

SayHey Kid said...

Rickey broke the SB record during his 9th professional season. What does that say and mean?? He did manage to lead all of major league in SBs and BB's for, what seems, all of the 1980s. A non-steroid era right?

He also broke the major league record of lead off homeruns for a leadoff hitter by his 10th season. Come on man, give me something other than "played to many years"

He broke a majority of his records before his 20th season. Keep in mind, The average career for a HOF inductee is roughly 20 years. And to maintain a career OBP over 400 requires consitency, at any age.

I dont think you have really taken the time to see what he has done during his career, before 1990!!!The man is ranked #51 on Sporting Americas All time top 100. Not a first ballot HOF my a$$.

SayHey Kid said...

Yeh, unanimous is impossible. Nolan Ryan didnt get 100%.

Baseball writer Bill James-"Without exaggerating one inch, you could find fifty Hall of Famers who, all taken together, don't own as many records, and as many important records, as Rickey Henderson

Dewey, Cheatem, & Howe said...

Stolen bases and runs? Those are the two career records he holds. What are his single season records?

Dude could run, that much is true, but he has a lower OBP than Jason Giambi, played the fourth most games and had the fourth most career plate appearances ever. He was great, no doubt, but I'm not giving him first ballot.

Dews said...

I guess in the grand scheme of things, it really doesn't matter when you get in...

I mean, the Veteran's committee has already made a mockery of the HOF anyway by its selection, so just so long as Rickey gets in I'm good with it.

That being said, I still say he's a first balloter :)

SayHey Kid said...

But youll give Jim Rice the HOF over Rickey next year right?? I expect nothing less from Red Sox nation.

Instead of us debating the size of his dick, let me just give you the bottom line. He won games. Without him in the lineup the A's would not have won what they won. No 1989 World Series. He was a pivital piece for 1 Bluejays World Series run in 1993. Fans loved him, the press loved him, and his teammates love him.

What is it about a players durablility and failure to get injured while playing hard that gets you so upset? You should hail his conditioning and his ability to play the OF for as long as he did. Without the use of high tech training methods and steroids.

I know a Red Sox player hasnt gone to Cooperstown since Ted Williams but dont worry, I see 3-4 shoe ins on your roster Right Now!! Patience young grasshoppa. No need to hate!

SayHey Kid said...

Dews- What do you mean by "mockery"?

Dews said...

The Veteran's committee has routinely voted in players that just don't have the stats or the careers to sit with the big boys.

Mazerowski and Concepcion (sp?) come to mind immediately, but thats without doing any real research.

No way in hell can you compare the likes of Honus Wagner with Bill freakin Mazerowski...

SayHey Kid said...

Yeh, Maz was great but not HOF great. The VC does have its flaws but it also has its accomplishments. If not for the Veterans committee just about every negro player who is in the HOF wouldnt be there.

Dewey, Cheatem, & Howe said...

You meant Wade Boggs, thank you very much.

Did I ever say Rice over Henderson? No. I also never said Rice was better than Henderson.

I think that your reaction to my Red Sox fandom and Jim Rice are tied: are you so sick of the Red Sox that you're willing to deny how good one of their players was? Doesn't seem very objective.

Rickey had some good stats, but give me long enough in the majors, and I might even put together a 3000 hit, 1400 steal career.

Also, any link to him and steroids? Seems those Bay Area teams have a problem with the juice.

Shane Rollins said...

Actually Dave Concepcion isn't in the Hall, he just had his last year of eligibility on the regular ballot this year I believe.

I think Jim Rice should be in the Hall of Fame, but his years of dominance were short lived and I think that's probably why the writers hesitate. That and he never talked to them.

Saying though that Rickey Henderson isn't a first ballot hall of famer is nothing short of intellectual dishonesty. The man is the greatest leadoff hitter of all time, the most feared leadoff hitter of all time, the greatest base stealer of all time, and like he's told us he's the greatest.

You want single season records? Single season stolen base record that is the next thing to untouchable with Cal Ripken's consecutive game streak. His 146 runs were the most by a Yankee since DiMaggio scored 150 in 1949. In 1990 he lead the league in runs (119), OBP (.439) and steals (65). He was second in hitting with .324. and won the AL MVP.

He broke the previous stolen base record in 1991 and added 700 more steals to it. He is the only player in MLB HISTORY to leadoff each game of a double header with a home run. and that was in 1993. Henderson's yearly averages were astounding: 78 stolen bases, 117 walks, 124 runs scored, 165 hits, 60 RBI and 16 home runs.

Finally here are his MLB records-all-time stolen bases (1,370), 2000, most home runs leading off a game (75); steals in a season (130), 1982; most seasons leading league in stolen bases (12); holds all-time club steals records for Oakland (1,270) and the New York Yankees (326)

Single Season records also include most stolen bases in a single postseason series (8) 1989.

SayHey Kid said...

I have no hatred toward the Red Sox, hell I greatly admire that franchise. Great GM, coach, owner, team, minor leagues, and scouts. I just never saw what the big deal over Jim Rice is. He wasnt that good. He had good players around him, Don Baylor, Darrell Evans, etc. He never seemed to get on base, he struck out alot......Shall i continue??

Yes, in theory the longer you play the higher likelyhood you are to break records, but you fail to recognize what records he broke prior to 1990. SB, HRs for leadoff, 8SB in a world series, etc. Jim Rice didnt have that durability or else he would have played more than 15 seasons.

Yeh, remember Mitchell was on the Red Sox payroll at one time, and again, I would expect nothing less than you accusing Rickey, or anyone not a Red Sox player, of taking steroids

SayHey Kid said...

Dynamite dropin Shane.

You take baseballs All time greatest lineup, Henderson would leadoff.

Shane Rollins said...

There is no link to Rickey and steroids and to think so is heresy.

You still seem to think that all of his records are due to how long he played, they're not. He broke all his records within 14 years of playing in the majors.

SayHey Kid said...

Shane just re-enforces my entire defense. Thank you!